Tibetan dead reported at more than 100 [Updated]
The Tibetan protests started on the 49th anniversary of the original Tibetan uprising in 1959. China is officially reporting 10 killed, but other reports put that number at over 100. The demonstrators are not only upset at China's long occupation of the country, but also at the large numbers of ethnic Han Chinese (from mainland China) who have moved into the country. Their small businesses are a key target of the demonstrations.
China has officially given the demonstrators until Monday to quit or they will face "punishment". The riots put China in an extremely difficult position. The Summer Olympics in Beijing are only 145 days away. They cannot allow any challenge to their authority, but they also don't want key nations boycotting the Games, costing millions in revenue.
My prediction: it will take a little while before China takes any significant action. The country is not quite the autocratic state it was under Mao, or even under Deng Xiaoping (the leader during the Tiananmen Square incident). Things are decided by huge committees, and it takes time to put substantial military forces in position in such a remote area. They might even hope the problem solves itself in the meantime. If the riots fizzle out on their own, China will cut its losses and look ahead toward the Olympics. If they do not, China will reluctantly crack down militarily and then deny everything, moving into full damage control mode to stave off worldwide criticism and protect their investments in this year's Olympics. And even in the USA, China's admirers on the far-left will accept China's version without question.
Believe it or not, even the Dalai Llama, Tibet's leader in exile, has his own website. He issued two press releases on the protests. March 10:
Dharamsala, HP, India, 10 March 2008 - On the occasion of the 49th anniversary of the Tibetan people's peaceful uprising in Lhasa on 10 March 1959, I offer my prayers and pay tribute to those brave men and women of Tibet who have endured untold hardships and sacrificed their lives for the cause of the Tibetan people and express my solidarity with those Tibetans presently undergoing repression and ill-treatment. I also extend my-greetings to Tibetans in and outside Tibet, supporters of the Tibetan cause and all who cherish justice.March 14:
I am deeply concerned over the situation that has been developing in Tibet following peaceful protests in many parts of Tibet, including Lhasa, in recent days. These protests are a manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people under the present governance.
UPDATE 15/03/2008 10:18:00 PM:
The Chinese may be faster than I thought. This does not look good:
Plooij Frans, a Dutch tourist who left the capital Saturday morning by plane and arrived in the Nepali capital of Katmandu, said he saw about 140 trucks of soldiers drive into the city within 24 hours.
"They came down on Tibetan people really hard," said Frans, who said his group could not return to their hotel Friday and had to stay near the airport. "Every corner there were tanks. It would have been impossible to hold any protest today."
Government workers said they have been prevented from leaving their buildings.
"We've been here since yesterday. No one has been allowed to leave or come in," said a woman who works for Lhasa's Work Safety Bureau, which is located near the Potala Palace, the former residence of the Dalai Lama.
"Armored vehicles have been driving past," she said. "Men wearing camouflage uniforms and holding batons are patrolling the streets.
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17 comments:
And not a word from any American politicians or political candidates. Damnable cowards, all. They will look the other way so as not to offend the chinese and risk interrupting our imports of cheap plastic crap bound for Walmart shelves.
As usual, you Yankees are quick to condemn others!
How many innocent civilians have your military killed in IRAQ??
HOW MANY...JUST HOW MANY SINCE THE USA INVADED AND OCCUPIED THAT COUNTRY UNDER FALSE PRETENCE?
SHAME ON YOU,
JAMES
To James - how many of those innocent Iraqis were killed because the US insists that Iraq is a sovereign part of the United States? How many were killed on official orders? How many were killed simply by protesting the US presence?
Zero.
Central China has ruled over Tibet since 1951. Maybe it's time for the Tibetans to give it a try.
To John,
You don't get the point do you ?
Killing of innocent civilians can never ever be justified, whether the USA claim IRAQ is a a part of the USA or not!
It;s bigots like you who still think the IRAQ invasion is a justified cause...never mind the hundreds of thousand of children, women and unarmed civilian that were killed in the name of colateral damages!!
Of course they were justifily killed by your B29, F15 and your Tomahawks. Anfd of course they were just colateral damages and not human lifes as they were IRAQIs.
Tally the count and let the WORLD DECIDES. You have lost the high moral ground long time ago.
James
You're partially right - nothing justifies intentionally killing innocent people.
But they are killed, even under the most noble of enterprises - for example, there were many innocents killed during WWII when we bombed Germany and Japan.
In any case, the issue here is Tibet, not Iraq, and I find it strange that you don't seem to be too outraged at the innocent people who have suffered there for the past 50 years.
Historically, Tibet was never really part of China, and it's clear they still don't wish to belong to it even after 50 years of the "blessings" of living in a Communist state.
Hey, John! Hope you don't mind if I shred James' assertion of indiscriminate American killing of Iraqis. It's unfortunate that I have to do this because, for all I know, he's probably a reasonable person when he's not caught in the echo chamber of media ignorance...or utopian denial of the reality of tyranical dictatorships.
James, you say that the US has caused the deaths of "...hundreds of thousand of children, women and unarmed civilian that were killed [in Iraq] in the name of colateral damages!!". Well, during WW2, American and British bombers waged an area bombing (there were no precision guided bombs in service then) campaign against Nazi (NSDAP) Germany which used millions of tons of bombs to destroy many cities and kill about 600,000 Germans. We know this because of the mass graves and that Germans documented it with written records, photos, and motion pictures. By comparison, in 2004 a statistical survey study in the British journal "The Lancet" purported to show 100,000 Iraqis killed in the 16 months after invasion and then, in 2006, some of the same authors came back with a new "study" purporting 650,000 Iraqis killed in 39 months of the war. The problem? The hard evidence didn't even remotely support either figure. In an age of unprecedented video documentation, there were no mass graves with hundreds of bodies, no hospital records of 2 million wounded, no photos of levelled cities (cities, James, NOT buildings), NOTHING that would actually support an accusation of greater destruction than that brought to Nazi Germany. What evidence there is, clearly shows ethnic violence brought by a 20% Sunni minority still attempting to terrorize an 80% Shia majority...and that majority finally striking back after decades of repression and murder. Respectfully, James, the factual death/destruction evidence does not support the "Americans as murderers" assertion.
It's truly unfortunate then that you go on to (perhaps self-righteously) declare "You don't get the point do you ? Killing of innocent civilians can never ever be justified..." In reality (NOT UTOPIAN DENIAL), taking actions that will kill innocent civilians is justified if the result of NOT taking such action will very likely be the killing of much larger numbers of innocent civilians later.
That is undeniable logic. This principal is also FULLY proven by the necessity of destroying Nazi Germany's industry by bombing, even though America and Britain would kill vast numbers of civilians as "colateral damages". Nazi Germany had already ACTUALLY (not hypothetically in a statistical survey!) killed millions of innocent civilians and would surely go on to kill more if it was not defeated and DESTROYED.
By such a logical standard, the bombing of Japan in an attempt to bring about its surrender, was even more justified considering Japan's vicious record of civilian slaughter throughout its Asian neighbors and the truly horrifying alternative (EVEN to the atomic bombings) of an invasion of the Japanese home islands of Kyushu and Honshu. The latter (Operations Olympic and Coronet) which would have resulted in MILLIONS of dead Japanese civilians and soldiers. By comparison, even the conventional bombings (killing several hundreds of thousands) and atomic bombings (killing about a hundred and fifty thousand) were smaller tragedies for Japan.
Lastly (but most unfortunately), YOU introduced personal invective into this discussion by refering to John as a "bigot".
Based on what evidence, sir? Perhaps some psychic power of yours to read a person's mind?
No; obviously just because he believes in acting on available evidence (generally accepted by the intelligence agencies of Europe and Russia) to remove a vicious tyrant who threatened his neighbors (PROVEN by history) and murdered his own people by the hundreds of thousands (PROVEN by evidence) was a logical course of action. That is hardly proof that he regards Iraqis as less valuable than Americans. Indeed, I'll wager that John knows several times as many Iraqis as you have ever even met!
James, I have followed the tragedy of Iraqi society for over thirty (that's 30, sir) years. Its Baathist dictatorships (accepted by the West but actually supported by the murder-indifferent Soviet Union) have brought no hope of any better future to its people. The lives of these people, who had no control over their country's destiny, were NEVER the subject of mass demonstrations by European leftists who railed against the US. All the demonstrations against "foreign involvement" in the Middle East were against Western democracies in general...and America in particular. That innocent Iraqi civilians were victims of their "socialist government" (in reality a kleptocratic dictatorship) didn't matter to the ignorant Euro-ideallists. All the latter cared about was that previously the Shah of Iran had been put in power by an American-backed coup and that he had a nasty SAVAK secret police who imprisoned several thousand political opponents. They ignored the fact the Shah didn't invade his neighbors and, in fact, proceeded to build a more Euro-secular government, held generally legitimate parlaimentary elections, and granted women equal rights.
These days, by comparison, while the Islamo-fascist Iranian government's vastly more nasty SAVAMA secret police KILL thousands of political opponents and that same government crushes personal freedom (moving in a way undeniably opposite to Iraq's freely elected government), the Euro-ideallists IGNORE it.
Why? Because for them (though I hope not for you), what matters is opposing some notional "American imperialism". They don't care about the actual lives of the Iraqi people...except as they relate to some "struggle against America" fantasy. They do this because they form a two-dimensional idea of what an Iraqi person is like based on what they read...or on some ideal (the "noble savage" was always a popular stereotype!) that their idealogues tell them...and they believe it to be true. Probably because they don't know any real Iraqis.
Unlike John.
In other words, the Euro-ideallists are bigots.
As someone thirty-years-familiar with the real tragedy of Iraq, I hope you're not one of those fools.
Because if you are, then you're a bigot, too.
-Jay Crawford
Wow Jay Crawford, get real!
The USA invaded without a UN Mandate, against the majority wishes of the whole world.
Nothing will change the fact that this is an illegal war that was justified with trumped up false evidence of WMD.
Also SADDAM was a creation of the USA which supplied it with a whole range of weapons when it was at war with IRAN. Now IRAN will thank you for getting rid of SADDAM...courtesy of the USA.
Like what they say 'Think twice and hard before you add or else the result will come back to haunt you.
If it was not for the Japs and the Asians who continue to accept your worthless governement bonds, your econony will be truly bankrupt.
James, I'm sorry that I must do this: I must crush your assertions one by one.
Your first two points:
"The USA invaded without a UN Mandate, against the majority wishes of the whole world."
There was no specific mandate to crush Saddam Hussein's dictatorship because such a mandate wasn't needed...IT ALREADY EXISTED. Please recall that the UN-mandated First Gulf War (to rescue Kuwait) ended NOT with a peace treaty but with an armistice. An armistice is a conditional cessation of hostilities and, in that instance, one of those major conditions was weapons' inspectors COMPLETE and TOTAL access to ALL suspected Iraqi weapons research, production, and storage facilities. This condition was generally met in 1991-1992 but, as years past, the Hussein government began to renege and resist. This lack of cooperation ALONE could be sufficient to cancel the armistice and renew fighting; as it was, however, the US waited twelve (12!) for the UN to take a firmer stand which could frighten Hussein into compliance. Instead, he acted like someone with something to hide...and EVERY major intelligence agency (including even those of France and Russia concluded that he PROBABLY was hiding something. President Bill Clinton even renewed limited air attacks...and, out of frustration with Hussein's games, announced an OFFICIAL American policy of ousting the Baathist government THREE YEARS before President GW Bush took office.
Now your third assertion:
"Nothing will change the fact that this is an illegal war that was justified with trumped up false evidence of WMD."
In my previous paragraph, I said "probably" because, in the inference-laden world of military intelligence, one virually never deals in certainties. Now that said, in this instance something interesting happened: Bush was told by the CIA Director George Tenet (whom CLINTON had appointed!) that, in the eyes of his (Tenet's) intell analysts, the certainty of evidence was "...a slam dunk, Mr President". Bush then did what ANY president, whether American, Russian, French or Kenyan, should do: he acted on it...and the UN Security Council helped.
Yes, the UN helped by UNANIMOUSLY issuing reports of Hussein's non-cooperation, corroborating the evidence and the basic contentions of the US. That ALONE was technically enough to break the armistice.
"Trumped up evidence"? Ha! Enough of it was good that many different countries and THEIR OWN analysts to make them ("the majority of the whole world") believe Hussein was hiding something. Period.
Although you might contend that the UN Security Council members (again, "the majority of the whole world") did not understand that they were setting up a de facto authorisation for war, by doing that you would be admitting that those governments were INCREDIBLY STUPID and had been completely out-maneuvered by the Americans!
You don't want to do that, do you?
Rather more likely, the practitioners of "Realpolitic" had merely set up an alibi for themselves in case no WMDs were found: "We didn't think THOSE Americans would really invade!!"
My favorite claim of yours, however is this:
"Also SADDAM was a creation of the USA which supplied it with a whole range of weapons when it was at war with IRAN."
"Creation of the USA"? You can't possibly be THAT stupid.
More likely, your statement seems to be proof that you know nothing except the opinions of your favorite Leftist writers/bigots/fellaters-of-totalitarian-tyrants.
Saddam Hussein was the "creation" of his pro-Nazi uncle Khairullah Tulfah (who raised him from the age of ten, after taking him from his abusive mother). He may also be claimed to be created by his rolemodel Iosif Dzugashvilli, better know as Joseph Stalin. After commiting his first murder (at age ), he joined the Baath Party as a thug/enforcer and, eventually, behind-the-scene power broker for his cousin, Ahmed Hassan alBakr. (He succeeded the latter as "President" of Iraq.) His greatest benefactor by far was the SOVIET UNION. His other benefactors were various Arab kings and presidents...ALL dictators. The only real exception was Jacques Chirac, whose unrelenting grooming of Hussein led to his nickname "Jacques Irak".
Oh, by the way: Can you name "a whole range of weapons" supplied to Hussein's Iraq during its war with Iran?
I can: Hughes 500-series and Bell 214 Huey helicopters. About 120 in total.
How about figures from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_sales_to_Iraq
You got one thing right:
"Now IRAN will thank you for getting rid of SADDAM..."
And all decent people everywhere WHO CARE ABOUT HUMAN LIFE will thank the US for getting rid of Saddam Hussein...including tens of millions of Iraqis, as John knows.
-Jay Crawford
P.S. Your last point was laughable:
"If it was not for the Japs and the Asians who continue to accept your worthless governement bonds, your econony will be truly bankrupt."
If our government bonds really were worthless (like Western Europe's economy after World War Two, before we bailed them out!), the Japanese* and other Asians would NOT buy them!
*I won't use bigoted slurs like "Japs".
Oops, I left out the age of Hussein at the time of his first murder:
He was 21 years old.
Jay...of course your IOUs are only worth what the asians will pay for.
If they dump them, you will be in the gutter.
You and the rest of the USA are living on the goodwill of ASIA!
If they want to sink Wall Street and your weapon base economy, all they have to do is dump your bonds...compandrie gringo??
I'm sorry James: I can't resist the obvious statement: Your mercantilist grasp of international economics is as abysmal as your Spanish! Hehehe!
Seriously, please remember that the US GDP has a value of over 14 TRILLION dollars. At 23% of the WORLD's economy, it's too valuable to be easily brought down...or even allowed to go down. If it did, the rest of the world will join it in collapse. And please also remember that, as a SINGLE nation's economy, it is more unified than its nearest competitor, the EU. (And it's not cursed with the overly-bureaucratic European Commission!)
Of course, if the US really, REALLY acted like the villian of the silly-Left's fantasies (or delusions, as the case may be!), it could always just sink the four boats of the French SSBN force and then tell Europe "Buy our bonds...or DIE! BWAHAHAHAHA!" [evil maniacal laugh]
Hey, unlike America, don't bet on the Russians coming to your rescue!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Now, aren't you GLAD that your ideas about America are just delusional?!?
-Jay Crawford
Comprende, senor?
Hehehehe!
Hi Jay,
What are you raving about?
Your dollar is in the gutter and you can't afford to holiday in Europe these days!
You people are using up your food stamps at record rate...ha, ha, ha.
Very soon your govenment won't even have the monies to run the services.
Just pray that the Asians will come to your rescue for you bet we won't.
Ha, ha , ha!!!!!
Oh, James.
Once again, you insist on showing ignorance of international economics by imagining it all to be some sort of mercantilist zero-sum game. I'm sorry that you must end up being laughably wrong.
"Your dollar is in the gutter and you can't afford to holiday in Europe these days!"
In such sillyness you forget the converse to fewer Americans travelling in Europe (and spending our money there): More Europeans are now taking holidays in the US.
In other words...We're takin' your tourist money, man!
"You people are using up your food stamps at record rate...ha, ha, ha."
Well, with expanded parameters for foodstamp eligibility (including many illegal immigrants), the foodstamp program ends up being mere Marxist socialism "From each according to his ability to each according to his need". Especially since I've known people with plasma-screen televisions who were considered eligible for foodstamps!
"Very soon your government won't even have the monies to run the services."
With American GDP of OVER 14 TRILLION dollars PLUS huge industrial AND natural resources...you REALLY have to suspend disbelief to make such a statement.
Or you have to be ignorant.
What follows is where you fully expose yourself as an envious, petty personality:
"Just pray that the Asians will come to your rescue for you bet we won't."
Well, let me introduce you to reality: ALL of our economies are tied together by mutual advantage. That is the nature of the modern world. And, whether we like it or not (though I do), none of our national economies is an island...ESPECIALLY THE ADVANCED WESTERN/ASIAN ECONOMIES. Proportionate to the size of the affected economy, we can't afford to let each other fail...especially the larger nations.
America will not let Germany, France, or Britain fall; it could put us into recession. Conversely, Germany, France, or Britain cannot let America fall because it could put their economies into depression.
Let me end this verbal beating of your vile petty hatred by giving it a rhetorical kick in the scrotum.
You said "...[we won't] come to your rescue."
Well, even if we held the same petty antagonism toward your counties that you hold toward us, we'd still rescue you from mortal threats. That's how we respond to peoples' desperate needs, even if those people are hostile to us (like the Iranian and Pakistani peoples after earthquakes devastated their countries). It's part of our Judeo-Christian morals.
Our country will always help your countries (just as I personally would help you) even if you might not do the same for us.
I guess that may make us better than you.
Take care, son.
_Jay Crawford
Mr James and Mr Jay,
I read with much delights the tit and tat debate between you two silly people.
It make for much delightful reading and it tickle my old pom ribs.
However I must say, Mr James has won the debate, if I must say so, even though he could have make his points in a more polite way.
Thank you you two for sharing your thoughts.
Kind Regards,
Richard Chamberlain
Would you care to be a little more analytical in your (seemingly) fiat-like decision, Mr. "Chamberlain"?
Otherwise, I fear, you may just end up sounding like James: many assertions with no debate. Every time I shred his theses with facts, he just switches to a new thesis...or maybe a new identitiy.
I would hope that YOU actually can support an assertion or even actually debate...unlike James.
Unless, of course, you are he (or one like him); then all such hope will be lost!
Cordially,
Jay Crawford
Two days and "Richard Chamberlain" isn't responding? Obviously, our faux-Briton is busy making a Thorn Birds sequel!
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